Copy: Rebecca Kent (host)
Welcome to another episode of JLL's Perspectives Podcast. We don't like to gloat, but JLL has moved its Melbourne team into a new office this year. Why is this significant? Well, it's broadly acknowledged that this new office, in the city's 101 Collins building, iconic as it is, represents the highest standards of quality corporate office space in Australia.
That is no mean feat because offices have to be everything to everyone these days. They've got to make workers want to leave home; they've got to inspire employees; they need to support a whole spectrum of working styles; they want to be sustainable on multiple levels; reflect and represent social and cultural diversity. And frankly, they've got to be worth all of the investment that you put into that.
This is something that landlords are grappling with so much these days. So JLL designed, built and delivered its new Melbourne office. JLL also collaborated and negotiated with our landlord to secure the office space. JLL also undertook all the strategic work that feeds into the design.
As a global real estate services company, for sure this is the stuff we do for clients daily, but the pressure to set a new benchmark for an office that will stand the test of time was huge. And here to attest to that fact, as well as talk us through all the important details of delivering an office of this calibre are my guests today: Alana Hannaford, who led the workplace strategy. Hello, Alana.
Alana Hannaford
Hi, Rebecca. How are you?
Rebecca Kent
Good. Very well, thank you. And Jennifer Moore, who oversaw the office design. Hello, Jen.
Jennifer Moore
Hi.
Rebecca Kent
I'm Rebecca Kent, host of this podcast.
So Jen and Alana, scrolling through my LinkedIn feed, it's been pretty evident that the Melbourne office has evoked some really strong feelings in employees and visitors. So strong that they felt compelled to share their reactions with their LinkedIn followers. Just as an example, one of them said, quote-unquote: ‘Imagine feeling so proud of where you work that you want to share it with the people you love the most’. And I think there was a photo of the poster and his father.
The rest of his post went: ‘new faces have been popping up around JLL’s Melbourne office – wives, husbands, partners, kids, parents. The space and experience that our workplace teams have activated with it have created something that people feel connected to and inspired to be associated with’. Full of praise, that post.
And then there was another post I spotted, which I thought was interesting. And the poster was saying, ‘well, you know what's wild?’ Quote-unquote, ‘a random thought, which you'll appreciate, despite the view at this office being amazing, I, without thinking, took a selfie facing inwards into the office, since I was drawn to the work cafe and the people. My observation is that what is within the floor plan and its types of spaces eclipses views these days.
The view outside the Melbourne office is pretty phenomenal too. So high praise again for the Melbourne office.
What are your instant reactions to those?
Jennifer Moore
Oh my gosh! I did actually see a couple of those posts as well. For us as a design team, we worked so collaboratively on this, just the whole team. It was just validating that we'd created a space that was warm, inviting, let people come in. I've seen people bring their families in, have you?
Alana Hannaford
Yeah, absolutely.
Jennifer Moore
And it's just that whole connection piece. So we've really managed that as a first point.
Alana Hannaford
And I feel really proud. It's not every day you get to work on an office for your own team. It is one of those wonderful things. You know the profile of the people, you know the business we're designing for, but the pressure is on. And to be able to see and hear people's stories and share that, it creates that wonderful sense of belonging for us. The whole team who worked on this are just so proud of the outcome. I think that's the best part of it.
Jennifer Moore
I really enjoyed seeing those posts pop up as well. It's just, yeah. Awesome.
Rebecca Kent
And it must have been an enormous amount of work. So validation, Jen, as you say, but surely a level of relief as well?
Jennifer Moore
Definitely. The design team that worked on this project, the hours that they put in, I think Catherine and Francis and Emma and Elliot, everyone was on site so much towards the end, working with our site team as well, which was really cohesive.
Sean was on site as well. It all just came together at the end and it was just so lovely to have that. It was a connection piece internally while it was happening and also has been a connection piece externally as well.
Rebecca Kent
The office has been described as ‘deeply Melbourne’. I've seen that term bandied about. What does that even mean?
Alana Hannaford
It's funny, early on when we developed the strategy, we explored this notion of what is Melbourne? And we looked at the urban fabric, the culture, but we also looked at our people and our business. And when we selected to stay in 101 Collins, the design team did this wonderful narrative piece on what does it mean to be between the Paris end of Collins Street, but also Flinders Lane with the rag trade, and I think the epitome of coffee and arts and culture, and, And the story of the location has really woven through the design to create what feels like a Melbourne office.
And we've heard that from our colleagues in other states who have come to visit that they've said this really feels like Melbourne. And it is from the artwork selection and the curation of the art to the coffee and, and the culture. It's almost a subculture that's being created in the office.
Jennifer Moore
I think what was really important for the project was that very deep research narrative at the start about, ‘we wanted to say in 101, what did that look like? Why was that the case? How can we bring that into the fit-out itself?’ So, our local context with the Paris end of Collins Street and the playful Flinders Lane, that came into the narrative, the Flinders Lane rag trade. So we brought that weaving narrative through the whole space. So having something that's very Melbourne intrinsically makes everyone feel part of the space, and there's a story and a narrative around it. There’s a reason for everything.
Alana Hannaford
And interestingly, an anecdotal story that I love is that we've named our back of house meeting rooms as the buildings that are still out the back door in Flinders Lane. And a number of staff members have come forward to say, ‘my grandmother worked there, or my grandparents ran that business’.
And we've seen photos from those businesses and it's just, again, that lovely story of our position here in the market. not only for our, the business we do, but also the story that we contribute to in the Melbourne landscape.
Rebecca Kent
They turn up to work today and there's a family connection, actually, like, quite large, which is pretty amazing.
So another interesting aspect of the building or the office design is the focus on neurodivergence, which I think is really emerging as a big sort of aerial focused for many new office designs. Well, I mean, I've spoken to colleagues even overseas in the UK who were seeing this as a, a trend. Um, I mean, you say trend, you think it's going to denote something that starts and then it's going to stop at some point, but it sounds like this is a new normal. What was the driver of that in our new office? And explain what neurodivergent spaces look and feel like.
Rebecca Kent
First and foremost, we wanted a workplace where everybody felt like they could bring their whole selves to work. And I think DE and I, in all facets, were explored as to how we could really deliver a workplace that truly empowers people to come and be themselves.
And when we first did our HX survey, we saw that there is a large portion of our population who identify as neurodivergent. And it was important for us to start to consider from an accessibility perspective, from an inclusive perspective and, and from a productivity perspective, how can we create a workplace that really enables people?
And so, from when we looked at the profiling, not of just people who are neurodivergent, but of all of our workforce, people need quiet retreat. People need to be able to have spaces to engage in collaboration, but also engage in quiet time or just not have those sensory overloads.
So we've gone through a range of elements of the workplace.
Jennifer Moore
I think one of the most successful pieces has been our library space. We've had clients come in to specifically see the library, which is quite interesting. It's a destination point within the floor plate. So it's somewhere where you can go and retreat.
The acoustics are lower, the desks are a little bit smaller, and you just feel a little bit cocooned in there. And it's been so successful for that very reason. And I don't think I realised how successful it would be until we've been in the space and using it and seeing how it's being used, which was our intention, which is great.
Alana Hannaford
On the work floor, we've also placed focus pods. So with the library being a destination, that's great. But we also wanted people to feel like they could sit close to their teams but have that sense of choice around their team neighbourhoods.
And those focus pods have lower levels of lighting, they have greater sound attenuation around them. So it just gives that sense of, ‘I can sit with my team in the open space, but also sit with my team in one of those focus pods and feel empowered.
The final part also for us was around wellness spaces. We've got three dedicated wellness spaces and we've got our parent and first aid room.
We've also got a multi faith room. But we've also included the, The Oasis, which is a space that again, includes acoustics and lights …
Jennifer Moore
… furniture selections, lamps. It's just a space to retreat to. It allows people to, if you just need a moment, you go in. It's not like a first aid room. It's just an oasis.
It's a little space for respite. And that has also been very popular. And something that, again, just provides that level of wellness.
Rebecca Kent
You talk about the library and the focus pods and the oasis. Presumably the flip side of that is that there are places where people are having conversations over the desk and bumping into each other and having conflabs as they pass each other.
Maybe just help us visualise the whole office? Give us a, give us a walkthrough.
Jennifer Moore
What we've really managed to achieve, particularly like that front of house area where there's that buzz and connectivity – if you think of that warm hospitality. So it's like you're going into a cafe or your favourite restaurant or something.
But you're there with your colleagues or your friends, and it's that bump factor and that whole piece in that front of house is just so lively. There's the stair there that connects you to downstairs as well, the warm timbers, the beautiful palette, which has just such a warm aesthetic with the timbers and the greys and the neutrals, but it's also got the maroons and stuff in it. So it's just a very Autumnal palette.
Alana Hannaford
And what's really interesting too, we, densified our desk environment to create that sense of connection. But what we also did was for every nine desks, there is a focus space to be able to move away from noise, to be able to have that empowerment to either keep noise in or keep noise out.
And that's a really important part of creating a collaborative environment but also empowering people in that space. So not only do we have the great social hub, we have the great cafe environment, we also have those desking spaces that not only influence collaboration, but also the work and the productivity pace that we need to address as well.
Jennifer Moore
We actually did something unique in 101 Collins as well, for the planning of the space. So going right back to the concept and working through the strategy and stuff, our design team looked at the planning of how we were going to lay out the actual space. We looked at where we sat on the Melbourne grid, and we overlaid that on the footprint of 101 Collins, and then we rotated that grid 45 degrees and looked at these additional pockets of space that this gave us and the journey that this created around the space.
So again, even the planning of the space came back to that narrative and that concept and that grid and where we were located. And it's. It's just provided that strong, really strong narrative in the space.
Alana Hannaford
I think it's also enabling hybrid work. So when people turn up different times of the week, how many days that each person turns up, everyone's got a different set of needs, but visibility and connection is amplified – that need to be able to see people, to be able to bump into people. And this beautiful diamond approach to the floor meant that we weren't creating unnecessary corridors. I'm just so proud of the way that your team have been able to design this.
Jennifer Moore
They've done such an amazing job. It meant that the beautiful natural light is given back to all of us who are working in the space. We're able to create these deeper pockets. The floor plan's quite deep in some areas. So that deeper pocket of built environment to house these extra focus rooms, extra phone booths, extra meeting spaces, which everyone needs in this hybrid environment.
Rebecca Kent
And that was purely by, as you say, laying the Melbourne city grid on top of the office plan, twisting it around a little bit, and …
Jennifer Moore
Yeah, and sketching how that flow would work through the space. And what's also interesting, those sketches and diagrams that, um, Catherine and our team did, she actually then worked with the Indigenous artist for our custom piece in our front of house, which is called Coming Together.
So the artist, Lisa Waup, took those sketches and that was also an influence for her, for her screen printing piece of Coming Together in this space.
Rebecca Kent
Right. Okay. It all sounds so connected in so many ways. That's really fascinating. Alana, you were talking about desk ratios and densities a little bit there. Tell us how we came to work out what was an ideal ratio. Because I think that's another thing that probably our clients and occupiers who are designing offices are struggling with. How many desks do you put in your office? Who's going to be in the office? How do you make sure the office is going to be busy, buzzing and full and those desks are not going to go to waste, and the floor space is not going to go to waste. Maybe just give a bit of an insight into how we did that.
Alana Hannaford
What's really important in this design piece was before we even put pen to paper, we had already worked through a range of scenarios around our headcount, our occupancy, and our neighbourhood strategies to really start to test if we've got two floors, how many guests needs to be on each of the floors, how can we reset our neighbourhoods and cycle different teams in different ways and made some really early decisions of that modelling.
And I think that created great success for the design. Each team in JLL is in the office a slightly different amount of time. And each team in JLL also has a different profile. And we really took the time to profile our teams to understand those nuances. And we created ratios or sharing ratios of those individual team’s profiles.
Now, across the organisation we have a set sharing ratio, but our neighbourhoods have been designed, and where we've placed our pin drops have been designed based on those profiles. And we've gone with a pin drop style of neighbourhood because we know our people need a gravitational pull to their team, but we didn't want to put hard boundaries around where are your seats and our seats.
And so this pin drop neighbourhood allows people to find where their team are, perhaps also to find where another team is if they want to sit with the other team for the day. But that early planning really helped us set up for success. And even the end of the design, we had six different scenarios of our team blocking strategy that we could do based on our internal relationships, based on our relationships with the spaces that we've designed. And I think it has landed beautifully.
Jennifer Moore
It's landed really well. Just having that whole front-end piece meant that when we actually tested it and began designing the space, it was so much easier because there was data and background and we knew what we wanted to achieve before we put pen to paper.
Alana Hannaford
And for our change management team, Sean, our colleague said, it's so easy to tell the story with the richness of the data and. where our neighbourhood strategy is. The company wants to engage with our teams to know that this has happened. And the teams really appreciated the rigour that we've been through.
Rebecca Kent
This actually segues perfectly into my next question. There are so many pieces and people involved in creating an office like this. How long did it take, by the way? What was the period of time from conception to delivery?
Jennifer Moore
About a year. At first we couldn't engage too deeply with the business because of the sensitivity and the negotiations of who else was moving within the building. But once we were able to, we had a steering committee that was really integral to being on board with the concept and where we were going and the strategy and how that was all working. And then that committee was very open with the business and engaging with their teams. We had change champions who also engaged throughout.
Alana Hannaford
And the structure of that change piece was really about role modelling with a leadership team. And Sean did a wonderful job of engaging with our leadership team, and then with the championship team. So we really empowered individuals across the business to drive the messaging, to engage with their own teams and to own the change as well, which just saw some great outcomes.
Rebecca Kent
So what I was going to ask around that is what did you know of what people wanted in a new office? That engagement I imagine is pretty crucial. At what point in the entire process do you engage people and how much of the feedback do you actually take on?
Alana Hannaford
The whole way through. Absolutely the whole way through. The more engagement, the better. You know, we are designers, we support the people and it has to be about them.
Jennifer Moore
This is why it was so important to have a, I can talk to the design concept, but it was so important to have a design concept that resonated with everyone, that made sense, that made sense with the building and the location and our people and people story woven into that narrative as well.
Alana Hannaford
So we had a number of, I guess, data collection points through surveying, through interviews, et cetera, early in the piece, but we also had moments of voting and engagement with our people. So early, the chair selection process.
Jennifer Moore
That was an open engagement, vote on your favourite chair, come in, try it.
Alana Hannaford
Even the beer taps, what beer do we want on day one? We had a fantastic engagement piece there. And even through the expo, our naming conventions for our meeting rooms.
Jennifer Moore
Come up with names for our meeting rooms.
Alana Hannaford
The more we have the opportunity to have people buy into that process, the better it is.
Rebecca Kent
There must've been some things that were pretty wild or outlandish suggested.
Jennifer Moore
I think some of the meeting room names were a little bit out there.
Alana Hannaford
The Melbourne nightclubs! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that.
Rebecca Kent
That's not terrible.
Jennifer Moore
That is pretty funny.
Alana Hannaford
It's always bold ideas. I think your team had a bold idea about the business hub, the business lounge. A space that has no technology, well, presentation only, but no audio visual because we wanted to design for purposeful presence. That was one of our key elements to say, ‘well, if you're going to design a hybrid working environment, you have to attract people sometimes through FOMO, sometimes through coffee and sometimes through beer taps. But the business lounge is such a wonderful space now that's highly utilised and engaged with’. But I'll let you tell the story.
Jennifer Moore
So it's a first for a JLL office, but really engaging with Alana and the strategy and that piece about purposeful presence. What, what did that mean?
So in 101 Collins we have the buttresses which stick out from the side of the floor plate. And instead of turning that into the boardroom or making that another meeting space, we thought it's something that we can give back to all of us to use. It's more flexible. So we have corporate lunches in there for clients, we have drinks in there, or it's just open during the day and you can get your coffee from the cafe next door, go in and just a coffee or a little client meeting in there. But it's a very flexible open space and it's right on the beautiful views that look straight down onto Fitzroy Gardens and across the MCG. So it's really beautiful.
Alana Hannaford
Funny, that's the truly Melbourne part we forgot to talk about: the views out to the sporting precinct. It's another part of the Melbourne part.
Jennifer Moore
So on our facade, there's actually only two meeting rooms of built environment on the entire facade for both levels, which is the boardroom and the little adjacent room to the boardroom, which we call the botanical room. So those are the only two meeting rooms. And that was also very purposeful to give them as much natural light and space back to those of us that are working in the space every day.
Alana Hannaford
While we've come down lower in the building, but what it's done is give you that sense of connection to the parklands around more than we had, which taps into the wellness.
Jennifer Moore
Yeah, absolutely. So it's a six-star Green Star and Platinum Wellness rated fit-out. So there was a lot of work that everyone did around that as well. Through the build as well. We should touch on that. We actually did build it. We have our builders license and the site team was phenomenal in that wellness piece. There was a lot that they needed to build and how they built it and everything. It was a very cohesive process.
Rebecca Kent
Just to go back to the view, how much can you see inside the MCG and what's happening?
Jennifer Moore
Oh, not enough. A little bit too far away.
Alana Hannaford
But I'm pretty sure any fireworks that we had over Melbourne is going to be quite stunning, That's for sure.
Rebecca Kent
And two meeting rooms. That's pretty lean!
Jennifer Moore
Only two on the facade.
Rebecca Kent
Gotcha. So it just means if you have guests coming in, they're the ones you'll grab first, presumably, because you want to show off?
Alana Hannaford
I think the way we engage with our front of house has significantly changed. Because we now welcome guests in and offer them a coffee and they get to take the view in from the wonderful cafe space and get to engage with our business in that more informal sense before you move to a room. And the way that clients now come in, it's changed and it's wonderful. You bump into people and you're like, ‘Oh, I didn't know you were here. How are you?’
Jennifer Moore
And our business is having more of those informal meetings in that front of house open cafe space. So there's booths in there, there are little chairs and tables. It has that cafe feel. It's almost like it's taken meetings out of these front of house meeting rooms, and people are having that more informal relationship and discussion.
Rebecca Kent
Nothing quite like a chat over the smell of coffee in the air, hey? So tell me, each of you, about your two favourite spaces in the office and why. Maybe spaces that you consider a real breakthrough for whatever reason. Maybe they were hard to get over the line, or they're just being used successfully, or surprised you maybe in the way it's being used.
Alana Hannaford
I'm going to talk about two spaces from two different perspectives. But for me, the library is such a wonderful space. And the design of it is why it's wonderful. You step over the line of the carpet where the carpet changes, there are no doors on it. You walk into the space and you instantly feel a sense of calm because of the acoustic treatment, because of the lighting. And you know the behaviour in there is to be quiet and you know that that's a space to focus. And for me, and for many people in the team. I get to go in there, do a piece of focus work. I get to come back and I get to enjoy being a part of the team. And that's really important for me to have productivity in the office. And I think everyone is just really enjoying that sense of choice.
The other thing, and it's a really strange one, is that I have a favourite chair in our breakout space. The reason why I love this chair is because it invites somebody to come and sit next to me. Often I struggle to fit lunch into my day, but when I do fit it in, I go and sit in that chair and often someone will come and say, ‘can I sit here?’ And it's somebody in a different team. I get to talk about someone's family or what they did on the weekend. And it's a wonderful space. Often I come up and say, ‘can I sit with you?’ And the chairs, they're facing the window. They're extremely comfortable. And it's just a wonderful moment in my day and it's a moment that matters.
And so that, that chair is facilitating that for me.
Rebecca Kent
It sounds like you've created a very deliberate time and a deliberate space in your day to invite conversation. That is nice.
Jennifer Moore
Yeah, I think for me, I don't necessarily have a favourite place, but what I've really been enjoying is actually living in a space that you've designed, because oftentimes we're designing for clients and we have an idea and an intention of how those spaces would be used, but we don't actually get to see how they're being used and if they are being used the way we designed and intended them to.
And this has been amazing because thankfully everything is being used how we intended it and designed it. And it's hearing stories like this when people are having those incidental bumps or have their favourite chair that just makes me so happy because I just love walking the floors and seeing who's using what and how things are being used.
Rebecca Kent
Absolutely. So it's now October and we’re four months down the track of when the office opened. Are there any interesting bits of data or insights that have emerged along the way in how the office has been used? Utilisation, I guess, especially is what I'm getting at, which is particularly what people like to know.
Alana Hannaford
We are counting how many coffees are made on a day and that's a really interesting data point, I think, because when we've had events or when we have a lot of clients in you can really start to see from the number of coffees what's happening.
We do have VergeSense, which is a data, I guess, a space data system. And at the end of that three month phase, we'll do a really big deep dive into the heat maps, some of those trends, the activation strategies that we've had. But also our neighbourhooding. So at the moment we're still working through the data.
We've got our survey out live at the moment. But I think what's fascinating is just seeing the peaks of occupancy, when focus rooms are more used than other meeting rooms, but also our front of house versus back of house. And so we are, at the moment, unpacking that data. There will be more to come on it.
Rebecca Kent
Any sneak previews? Tell us how many coffees, roughly?
Jennifer Moore
Oh, yeah. I think we're averaging about 500 coffees a day. But then when we have an event or something, it can be up to 600 coffees per day, to the point that we've actually brought another barista on. So that's three during peak times. I mean, it is Melbourne.
Rebecca Kent
That's a successful cafe.
Jennifer Moore
Yeah, it is very.
Rebecca Kent
And any insights as to how, or what the peaks and troughs of attendance are through the week?
Alana Hannaford
We are still seeing a Tuesday to Thursday trend. And that's normal for across the industry. It is a reality for people and the way that they work. But different teams are different. We do see in our markets business a higher occupancy on Mondays with the activities that happen. And I think the teams are just levelling out their cadence still. And so we're seeing a shift in some of the team meeting operating rhythms, trying to activate Fridays and Mondays a little bit more. And I think it'll still take a bit more time for us to level out. But also for JLL 4 JLL team. They've been doing some amazing activation activities. And I think that's a part of understanding the utilisation and nudging, some of the other times of the week where we're a little bit quieter.
Rebecca Kent
I mentioned in the beginning, in my intro, that this office really sets a new benchmark for corporate offices in Australia. Was that too bold a claim? What's your opinion?
Alana Hannaford
I say no. I think we have created a truly hybrid enabling workplace. We have many people coming in asking us for photos, asking us for advice, asking us ‘how does this work?’
But what we've been able to achieve is that sense of empowerment and choice for people, but also that sense of connection and belonging. And we didn't talk about this earlier, but we have different types of desks throughout the working environment. We have long-stay desks, medium-stay desks, short-stay desks.
It was another part of our design. And I think we've got all that right so far. You know, if we grow and we push the workplace and work it a little bit harder, we might need to adjust it and evolve it. Uh, but from a day one perspective, I really do think that we've created a leading workplace.
Rebecca Kent
And so, Jen, you reckon it's going to stand the test of time? It's a lot of investment, right? And so you want it to be good for years to come.
Jennifer Moore
I think it will because we're very careful in designing something that actually resonated with who is going to work in this office. The whole design concept was original to JLL, where we sit in the building, who we are as a business, who we are as people. I think if you do that deep research and dive into a company and come up with a concept that resonates with them as the correct strategy for how they need to work, it will stand the test of time.
Alana Hannaford
And also leveraging the building. We have a wonderful relationship with 101 Collins Street. And you know, the masterplan that has been delivered in the base building and throughout, we made sure that our story aligned to that story, but also in a value proposition for our people: the wonderful studio downstairs, the end-of-trip facilities, the winter gardens and the cafe in the lobby. It all played into our decision making, it all played into that story for our people and the value proposition that we have here. It’s just wonderful.
Rebecca Kent
Yeah. Amazing. Is there anything else I should ask you about the office or your experience in bringing it all together that we need to cover?
Alana Hannaford
I feel like we perhaps haven't done all the teams who are involved justice in this conversation – the technology, the ESS team, we’ve talked about the site team. There are so many facets of JLL, even our leasing and our tenant representation teams, everyone's been involved in this.
So I think for me, I don't know that I can answer the questions, but I recommend for people to reach out to those teams and ask them about their experience through this project, because there's so many different lenses and so many different stories in bringing this to life.
Jennifer Moore
Yeah, I would agree with that. It was a truly One JLL project. And I think it's a great representation of what JLL can do. Yeah.
Rebecca Kent
Great shout. All right. Well, Alana Hannaford and Jennifer Moore, thank you so much for joining me on the Perspectives podcast. I hope this gives our listeners a bit of an insight into what it takes to pull together a premium level office space.
It seems to be going down exceptionally well. So that's good. I might do a LinkedIn survey on how many coffee people think that we're providing every day. We'll see who's listening to this podcast. Thank you so much.
